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is a spider-child
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:54 pm GMT 
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Cedar wrote:
i think it's their choice, not mine.

How easy life would be if one could just choose who to be attracted to! If I could, maybe I wouldn't be so lonely...

Edit: And I ought to add my opinion, which isn't going to be too shocking. Like P.I. said, this ought to be a non-issue, just like any sort of discrimination. Sexuality, gender, colour of skin or hair, religion etc, etc, does not matter. It is the person inside. Personally I have found that I don't of someone who I find interesting and think of their reproductive organs. I think "they have kind eyes", "they are nice", "they made me laugh" or "I could actually carry on a conversation with them which I enjoyed".

The bible says nothing about love being wrong, ever. It says that love is greater than even faith or hope, it doesn't specify that it's the love between a man and a woman, it just says "love" (1 Corinthians 13:13 if you want to check it out). And to those that say that the bible forbids man to lie with man or whatever; it also forbids sex before marriage. You don't discriminate those that break that "rule" now do you?

I would also like to point out that this comes from a girl raised in a Christian family, and who considers herself a Christian.

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That motherfumbler!
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:12 pm GMT 
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I believe that all people have the same basic, intrinsic rights, and those include love and respect. Therefore, it's only right that I believe in LGBTQ causes, and believe gay marriage should be legal.

Now, I come from a SUPER CONSERVATIVE school, in a SUPER CONSERVATIVE neighborhood. My family also happens to conservative Christian. And I am (somewhat) bi. By somewhat, I mean that I'm asexual, but I am interested in romantic relationships with boys or girls (note: if you're unaware, I'm a girl). With my Christian, conservative upbringing, I still never questioned that gay equality was right. But I still live in a place where romantic interest in the same sex will get me targeted.

IT SUCKS.

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certified Ninja Pirate
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:18 pm GMT 
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whoa, apparently my "whatever" opinion was less "whatever" than i thought.
um, allow me to revise and specify;

i suppose it's not really a choice, but it IS a choice to tell me about it, and if you tell me, it won't change my opinion of you at all.

and the reason i say "don't hit on me" is because of 2 reasons;
1. i'm already uncomfortable in romantic or i'm-attracted-to-you situations, and my nerves go through the roof when i'm put into those situations.
2. the last time a gay guy hit on me, he didn't exactly do it the polite way, and it's still quite vivid and not all that pleasant for me to recollect or be reminded of, thus making me even more uncomfortable.

no hard feelings, i just really don't like being uncomfortable around people. i'd much rather be at ease and happy. that's probably why i've only ever been in one relationship. :/

better? worse?

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European! Old! Pretentious!
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:10 am GMT 
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Safirelle- my sympathies at having to deal with that kind of environment. It's sad how prevalent that seems to be in the US that homophobia has that kind of religious backing that makes it even more insidious and difficult to counter.

Cedar- What can motivate a somewhat less than enthusiastic reception to that phrase is really the very frequency with which straight guys take pains to clarify, specifically when talking about gay people, that it's 'fine so long as you don't hit on me'. Gay folks have usually heard that one a million times. I mean, why specify? Why not just end it at supporting the rights bit?

They specify that added bit because they want to make it very clear they're not okay with gay or bisexual guys in a specific scenario. Which.. is not as tolerant sounding as you might think.

A lot of the time they aren't basing that on any real experience, they just find the notion of a guy hitting on them to be icky, which in itself is homophobic.

When I hear that phrase, I have to question- what are they implying happens when a gay guy over-steps that bound? Would a guy who says this end up being a threat to a gay guy who hit on him? It does imply a kind of conditional acceptance that could be taken away if a line is crossed.

Now understand, I'm not suggesting you meant anything bad with your phrase, I'm pretty sure you didn't intend to suggest anything intolerant or homophobic. I'm just trying to explain why it is that people get a bit tired of hearing it and also explain some of the implications it has.

You say you've had bad experiences being hit on by a guy that have made you uncomfortable. I can understand why that would give you added reason to want to add that to things when you're talking about gay rights. But it's not really that relevant, I think, to mention it when discussing LGBT rights. And if you say this to gay people you know it can actually come across as less than accepting.

Objecting to being treated disrespectfully, having someone overstep your personal boundaries, and hit on you in a creepy manner- that's totally reasonable of course, the vast majority of people would rather not endure that. But in using that phrase the implication is that ALL approaches to you by a gay guy-respectful or not-would be equally unacceptable. Or perhaps that you think that all gay guys are always predatory and unpleasant when they hit on other men. And both of those things don't really speak of full acceptance of gay people.

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Non-Furry Control Group
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:26 am GMT 
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I know Cedar meant no disrespect, but Graid speaks the truth. :)

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Embodiment of contradictions
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:49 pm GMT 
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Personally being hit on by anyone in any situation is just weird, regardless of orientation.

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The Personification of Spring
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:57 am GMT 
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I don't understand why people can get so intolerant of something that really isn't any of their damn business. I personally believe your orientation is something you're born into (though perhaps all the labels muddle the situation), and that's that.

I also find it hilarious politicians who preach sanctity of marriage and wholesome family values are the ones so obsessed over what's going on behind closed doors.

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 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:06 pm GMT 
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smarticus wrote:
Personally being hit on by anyone in any situation is just weird, regardless of orientation.

Maybe, but I've always found it rather flattering anyway. Unless they're way too insistent of it, then it's just creepy.

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Embodiment of contradictions
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:18 pm GMT 
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Somairle wrote:
smarticus wrote:
Personally being hit on by anyone in any situation is just weird, regardless of orientation.

Maybe, but I've always found it rather flattering anyway. Unless they're way too insistent of it, then it's just creepy.

I find all of it insistent. But then again I'm an antisocial hermit so things pan out.

MusicMan108 wrote:
I personally believe your orientation is something you're born into

As far as personal study has shown me, you're not born with any sort of orientation. I don't mean sexual by the either. When you're born you have no idea what, quite frankly, anything is. You have to discover it first. From then on it's how you interact with that something that forms your opinion of it. Saying people are born with a sexuality is like saying people are born liking tacos, which, while delicious, aren't everyone's cup of tea. You can definitively be influenced by various things like prenatal hormones (Click a few of the things here and these, they're by people smarter than me) which can cause people to have a certain liking to the same sex, but it's not a %100.

To put in in simple terms, you have to know what you're liking before you like it. If you removed environment and interaction (IE dump a blindfolded baby on a deserted island) at no point would they ever claim to like a sex/gender, because they don't know what they are. It's through influence that we come to things like sexuality, just like every other opinion.

At least that's what I've read tells me. I'm barely past the intro to sopsy.
AA Ehrhardt, HF Meyer-Bahlburg wrote:
Gender identity depends largely on postnatal environmental influences, while sex-dimorphic behavior and temperamental sex differences appear to be modified by prenatal sex hormones. A role of the prenatal endocrine milieu in the development of erotic partner preference, as in hetero-, homo-, or bisexual orientation, or of cognitive sex differences has not been conclusively demonstrated.

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The Personification of Spring
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:23 pm GMT 
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...First off, is that quote even English? Second, how did you just manage to completely overturn everything I just said?

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Embodiment of contradictions
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:07 pm GMT 
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Yes, but it's in this weird English called "Science". It baffles me, and I definitely have an accent.

"Gender identity depends largely on postnatal environmental influences"
Homo- Hetero- Bi- is determined by your experiences and influences as a person in life.

", while sex-dimorphic behavior and temperamental sex differences appear to be modified by prenatal sex hormones."
Sexual dimophism is how men and women look different. Temperamental sex differences are basically what defines a gender role (Cue make me a sandwich joke).

"A role of the prenatal endocrine milieu in the development of erotic partner preference, as in hetero-, homo-, or bisexual orientation, or of cognitive sex differences has not been conclusively demonstrated."
Bla bla bla big words. "At no time in fetal development has a preference or a suggested future preference to a sexuality or gender identity ever been studied or recorded conclusively".

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Non-Furry Control Group
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:26 am GMT 
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smarticus wrote:
"At no time in fetal development has a preference or a suggested future preference to a sexuality or gender identity ever been studied or recorded conclusively".


True, but there's nothing conclusive pointing to experiences and influences being the most important factor, either. I'm curious about what kind of influences or experiences could orientate a man towards liking men and a woman towards liking women... especially at a time in history when homosexuality was entirely ignored, and yet homosexuals kept popping up.

There's a reason aversion therapy is a crock. When you're an adult, your sexuality is either impossible or near-impossible to genuinely change, and when you're a pre-sexual kid, most of your influences are completely unrelated to sexuality.

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 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:12 am GMT 
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Well, aversion therapy isn't a complete crock, when one talks about drunkards or folks with severe OCD, but for sexuality, yeah. It's just sexuality. It's an innate part of a person's core. I don't think one should be defined by it, but it's definitely a key part of our makeup.

And historically, when was homosexuality ignored? Even Thomas Aquinas chimed in. He thought it was acceptable to the extent it'd prevent unwilling rape (same reason he thought prostitution should be legal though).

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Embodiment of contradictions
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:28 am GMT 
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Somairle wrote:
And historically, when was homosexuality ignored?

Da. If anything it was a huge issue. At least in 1900+ America.

Silvanus wrote:
there's nothing conclusive pointing to experiences and influences being the most important factor, either

Not sure about that one Tim. H. Meyer-Bahlburg is pretty big in this sort of stuff (30~ish articles to his name, here's a few) and he's fairly adamant in saying that a sexuality/gender identity is based majorly on social things, but influenced by hormones. I'm not about to pay $200 for one of his articles but the gist of them is usually that, IE this, this, most of these.

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That motherfumbler!
 Post subject: Re: GLBT Rights and What You Think Of Them
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:50 pm GMT 
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I don't necessarily agree or disagree with anything being said, as I've never really considered what makes sexuality the way it is. The only thing I've ever felt certain is that it cannot be taught or forced to change.

The discussion just makes me curious about, if social factors can determine sexuality, what makes me asexual? Not feeling sexual attraction at all...I can't think of what would influence me in that direction. Sexual attraction, since the age I should have started experiencing it, has always been a language I don't speak.

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